Welcome to Child Protection Resource

We started this site in February 2014 and we will continue to add to and update what is here. It may be that you can’t find what you are looking for right now but we will make sure the information is up as soon as possible. Please let us know if you have suggestions for what would be useful to include. 


Our Purpose

The purpose of this website is to try to help everyone - parent or professional – who is involved in the Child Protection (or Child In Need) process to navigate through the confusing legal maze of children’s  services intervention and the family courts.

We would also like to contribute to a debate about how best to make the child protection system fair, transparent and effective.


How we started and what guides us

We are a group of people who ‘met’ online in various discussions about the child protection system. We have experience of the system from a wide variety of perspectives and were all very worried about the degree of misinformation being offered to some potentially very vulnerable people. We have no official or commercial affiliations, we are all volunteers and contributing to this site in our own time.

Some of our contributors do not wish to disclose their identities  on the site due to the sensitive nature of the subject matters we discuss, but when individuals wish to identify themselves, they will make this clear.

We agree with the words of Lord Laming

‘Please keep me safe’. This simple but profoundly important hope is the very minimum upon which every child and young person should be able to depend. Sadly, sometimes even our imaginations fail to help us understand the dependency of young children or the vulnerability of adolescents, regardless of their displays of bravado.

Most adults recognise that children and young people need security, stability, love and encouragement. As the Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks put it, “Children grow to fill the space we create for them, and if it’s big, they grow tall”. The years of childhood pass all too quickly and become the foundation upon which the rest of life depends.

[...] In general, families are best placed to care for children and promote their welfare. Fortunately the vast majority of parents seek the best for their children and, entirely rightly, the state supports them in this important task. However, parenthood incorporates not only rights but also responsibilities: it is a lifetime commitment. Particular mention should be made of the part to be played by fathers, not least as good role models. 

Our aim is to give good, helpful, and lawful advice and support to everyone involved in the process and to highlight other useful sources of information that we find.


Who contributes to this site?

Birth Parents, Foster Carers and Adoptive Parents have all contributed so you can see stories from every side of the process. Social Workers and Family Lawyers are among many of the professionals that have also contributed to the site to provide information about what their roles can be.

We hope this will be an ever growing resource – so if you have something you think would be useful to share with others please get in touch and let us know.

We welcome all contributions to the debate as long as they are polite. Our guiding principle is that ‘serious allegations require serious evidence’.

Please feel free to join in, by either commenting on our articles or submitting your own article for publication here.


Contact Us




We added this paragraph after a helpful comment from one of our contributors.

This is the internet. We can’t carry out extensive background checks on everyone who contributes. If we think something looks credible and helpful we will publish it. If we get something wrong, please tell us. When contributors are happy to be identified, we will provide as much identification as possible to let you feel confident about them. But a lot of our contributors want to remain anonymous for pretty obvious reasons and we have to respect that.

But it is good advice on ANY internet site – be cautious. You often can’t be sure who anyone is. Don’t use this site to replace getting help and advice from the trusted real life professionals you know. We hope it will act mainly as a useful signpost to you.

Views expressed on this website are not necessarily the views of the owners/ creators of the website. We have contributions from all  sorts of people involved in the child protection system. We won’t post/ allow anything we think is libellous or illegal and anything we do post is done so with the best of intentions.


Comments policy

We welcome any comments from people with an interest or experience in the child protection field. But we ask that comments are polite and supported by evidence wherever possible or appropriate. If we think a comment is deliberately insulting or displays 3 or more of the characteristics listed here, we will delete it and may move it to the Response to Commentators section, where it can be answered without derailing or detracting from any constructive debate.

97 thoughts on “Welcome to Child Protection Resource

  1. Matt Harding

    I think if anyone is going to hurl wild accusations around then they need real facts to back it up on either side.

    1. phillimoresarah

      Hopefully one thing we can all agree on is that the more time we spend on making or dealing with ‘wild accusations’ the less time we have to do anything remotely productive or helpful.

    2. MerlinC

      Unfortunately, on my side I have Matt…. But believe me, only a few abuse/rape survivors will ever speak out in public. Fear, fear, fear… It is Jimmy Savile 2.0 all over again, always.
      I can understand perfectly where anyone who was abused as a child is coming from, I know how it is hard to change name, address, life.. Just to escape the past.

      A friend of mine was sexually abused by her stepfather. She had depression and PTSD for years and one day she decided she had to face the past. She reported her rapist to the police. Well her mum didn’t want to speak or see her anymore and she put every single relative against her.

      It is not easy to speak out. And associations like Fassit are on the victimblaming attitude side (because they think that if there is no conviction the fact didn’t ever happen) and they assert just the opposite of anything said by Rape Crisis, Women’s Aid and all the associations dealing with abuse and rape. I mean, if you want to get an idea about it, just browse the internet and see what Joseph or Hemming stated, even in public interviews.

      The problem is that this Fassit people have no idea of what they are doing and, above all, how much harm are causing to the ones they think they are protecting. Shameful and disgusting to anyone who has suffered abuse in their lives.

    3. caz

      After an appearance as a family in Leeds court 3rd May 2000 in fromt of one Judge involved in a split case as printed May 30th 4.49 a Judge Cazalat, could we as a family name Judge Cazalat and Judge Bennet, the two judges involved in the child care proceedings of my grandson as witnesses of a contemptuous, vexatious, scandalous case against an innocent family, also these two judges are now retired how? where? could we contact them, or can we just name them as witnesses?

      1. Sarah Phillimore

        I think if you want to make a complaint about the conduct of a Judge, as opposed to appealing against the legality of their decision, you need to contact the Judicial Conduct Investigation Office at http://www.judicialcomplaints.gov.uk – they might be able to tell you what options you have if a Judge is now retired.

        1. caz

          As a family we do not have any complaints of the judges, as we understand the law rightly of wrongly Judges listen and read the evidence put forward and judge, and we think it down to the agencies involved to ensure the judgements are acted/adhered to otherwisw it is they and they alone not doing the job they are employed to do.
          As our case stands and our allegations against all the other agencies involved, we have 4 High Court Judges (now retired) as witnesses to support what we allege

    4. caz

      @Matt Harding or anyone that has any legal knowledge?
      Can a childs name be changed (without any legal right to do so) on a Full Care Order
      Is it legal to RE-split a case that was joined to-gether as one case in a High Court Judgement
      Having legal proof this is what happened, and reported to Cleveland Police, is this now a criminal matter

  2. MerlinC

    For any person who believes in any conspiracy (of any kind, not just this one) evidence is what they believe, not what they see or what is real.

    As Sarah said on Pink Tape, the time to Argue with People Who Are Wrong on the Internet is a waste.

    1. caz

      Conspiracies that can be backed up by evidence and as I have stated 4 High Court Judges as witnesses, No ONE can change a Childs Birth certified name for vexatious, fictitous injuries, or change a fictitous name stated on a Full Care Order back to a childs birth registered name, It is Criminal to do so, end of.
      As far as not publicising what went on in our childs case, I wish 17yrs ago there was more helpful information, other than believing the conspirators that because my grandsons parents were not married, they could change his name at will

  3. Philip Measures

    I would urge that for this Site to have maximum impact that Moderators ensure that it does not become a platform for the severely disgruntled and angry to vent their upset in ways which cannot be verified – anecdotal reporting has its uses but for real progress to be made what is required is evidence / factual-based and verifiable comments.

    The use of generalised comments as used by FASSIT UK may be correct but lack evidence – and I know that due to how the Family Courts operate that is difficult to substantiate – or not. We do have a legal system and the burdens of Proof have to be met – many will disagree with certain Court decisions but, equally, within the area of Safeguarding / Child Protection we are not dealing with an exact science.

    This Forum, i believe, has the opportunity to really have a positive impact on improving practice – let us do all that we can to ensure that it becomes highly regarded as professionally and publicly credible – and is viewed as a ‘wise’ Forum.

  4. phillimoresarah

    I agree if we find ourselves over-run by unmoderated and wild accusations, this is tedious and unhelpful to anyone. But equally, I don’t want to give the impression that we are ‘running scared’ of any such accusations. I would like to leave them to stand so that we can attempt to challenge them. I think it will be a question of trial and error and finding the right balance – some people sadly have no interest in any debate on this very important issue and certainly no wish to provide substance for anything they say.

    these people shall not be allowed to dominate this resource. But equally we do not want anyone to feel shut out.

    that is my view, but I am one of many. It may be that a different majority view prevails in time. We shall need to wait and see how things develop.

  5. ruralsocialworker Post author

    Hi Philip

    Glad you found us! I recognise you from the carespace forum.

    I agree with Sarah, we are only a week old and will review the comments/moderation policy as we age.

    The whole reason this resource was set up was to challenge the kinds of views we have found to be increasingly pervasive from the likes of FASSIT and John Hemming in the child protection discourse. If by seeking to challenge those views we invite debate in the open where potentially dangerous views can be challenged then I suppose we are meeting our initial aim.

    1. MerlinC

      Well, I wouldn’t know what to answer to any single conspiracy theorist, because any answer I could give wouldn’t satisfy them.

      What I can hope, for the future, is that this site will also give a voice to the “children”. Has any of you noticed that Fassit, justice for families, forcedadoption and the likes never include any “witness” evidence brought up by a child?

      I think that the best option would be to credit or to discredit these parents for what they are. Only then, we would know if LA and Social services acted well or not.

      1. phillimoresarah

        Merlin, I don’t think we will ever reach the ‘hard core’ conspiracy theorists. I remain concerned about vulnerable parents who might read some of the CT stuff and be afraid. I think we can help them by dispelling a few myths.

        And when complete transparency occurs in the family courts, which is what a lot of campaigners want, then all the horrible details of the cases WILL be on public display, including what the parents did or didn’t do. So I don’t want to try to ‘discredit’ parents; a lot of parents went through the care system themselves and had horrible times.

    2. Wenna

      Hi I would just like to say my family suffered harrasment from child protection because I reported my childs disclosure of abuse he suffered at a family centre to the police I also got reosonable evedence to back up my claims of psychological damage done to my child by the child abusers who remain employed by the local authority. The local authoritys responce was to persecute me initialy acusing me of emotional abuse for reporting what my child said to the police!. Eventualy as a responce to my repeated complaints and concerns about other childeren who were exposed to the perpertraitors of my childs abuse social services asked a profecianal wittness to reveiw my childerens medical records and write a report stating I had munchousens by proxy and was a danger to my childeren my health visetor disagreed with this ‘diagnoses’ , in order to protect my childeren from psychological damage of being removed from myself I then had no option but to flee from the UK all actions by UK social services where made with the objective of protecting the child abusers and covering up for failures of the local authority to protect vurnerable childeren, I had my case handed over to EU social services and passed assesment by a qaulified psychologist who assesed me in person and had my case closed here. The corruption I experianced in the UK was on a level with stalins russia I wouldent believe it had I not experianced it first hand , a system to protect childeren completly malfunctioning due to corruption had I remained in the UK or conceided to the ‘blackmail’ that followed my departure to return by the official case handover date or have all 30k of my belongings ‘disposed of’ by the council. Then ultimetly my young childeren would have suffered the horrendus psychological damage caused by being forcibly removed from a loving caring protective parent. It is no suprise that parents finding themselves embrioled in such a corrupt goverment system are leaving the UK in order to retain childeren that the majority love and care for well. I have come accross many many other parents who say their childeren were removed from their care after they reported abuse or suspected abuse of their child this is. Contarery to the best interests of any victim of abuse whosebest chance of recovery from the trauma is to cut contact with the abuser and remain in the care of a trusted adult.

      1. Sarah Phillimore

        what was your lawyer doing? Why did you agree to an assessment by an expert instructed only by social services?
        How did a psychologist from the EU get your case closed in an English court?
        How were you ‘blackmailed’ to return by threats to seize your assets?
        Why do you say it was ‘corruption’ – what was their aim in trying to take your child?

        I am sorry if I sound sceptical, but this doesn’t make sense.

        1. Gemsy

          I have every respect for your view but you must respect others who have experienced wrong doings. I myself wrote on here and you deleted it! ( It wasn’t in reply to anything and wasn’t part of innocent deletion because it was my experience and the only reply I had was your own but still you deleted it.) I was a child that was taken into care from loving parents and the lies and deceit that were written and said, was outrageous.
          There may not be an objective for a few, that are there just because they are horrid people and abuse the the standing and trust they are given by the state to protect children but do the exact opposite. There are however some really wonderful people in social work but you cannot assume that this is the case with them all! There are cases some not reported on but some that are. Nobody wants to open the can worms and admit to any embarrassing wrong doings within their own departments. The best interest of every child should be met. Some social worker prefer to accuse and destroy again I hope it’s the minority but what is wrong with a little transparency and experts held to account. “Social workers have immense powers and terrible responsibilities. If they make a wrong decision, the consequences can be catastrophic. A failure to intervene when a child is being violently abused by its parents can lead to the death of that child, as was shown so tragically in the Baby P case. But a decision to take children away from parents who are, in fact, loving can have almost equally awful consequences.

          ”http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/10580028/Child-protection-services-A-mothers-diary-records-the-awful-death-of-a-child-in-care.html. http://cllrkevinedwards.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/over-to-you-carwyn-jones.html. http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1420225.ece. http://blogs.channel4.com/victoria-macdonald-on-health-and-social-care/lost-family-told-care-granddaughter/1725. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mother-tongue/8349748/Social-services-took-my-children.html http://www.thurrockgazette.co.uk/news/10921484.Couple____win____their_baby_girl_back_from_social_services_after_she_was_taken_away_for_NINE_months/?ref=var_0

          Now as with social services, newspapers have an editors code of practice (http://www.pcc.org.uk/cop/practice.html) they must adhere to. If they don’t they can be prosecuted. They cannot lawfully print lies but I’m not saying they don’t sometimes ……. But then social worker have a code practice they must adhere to, hopefully they do, but there are some that don’t I can assure you.

          1. Sarah Phillimore

            I apologised for deleting your comment and asked you to share your experiences again. I did not hear further from you. I am sorry you have had such a horrible experience and you are welcome to post here if you think it could help other people or would even be a healing experience for you.

            However, I am afraid I cannot agree that I ‘must’ respect others who have suffered wrong doing. This appears to imply that anyone who asserts they have suffered a wrong doing is telling the truth. To simply agree with other people’s assertions on that basis can be dangerous.

            I do not deny that there are many people who have suffered from mistakes, laziness or incompetence. I hope I do not disrespect their pain but when someone like Ian Josephs continually makes assertions which are simply untrue and which are going to frighten vulnerable people, I cannot just sit back and let that go unchallenged.

            I do not assume all social workers are wonderful. Its very dangerous to make blanket assumptions about an entire group. Nor do I think there is anything wrong with transparency and holding people to account for their mistakes or their carelessness. I don’t think anyone who contributes to this site thinks that. We all want to be involved in a debate about how to improve the system, not get distracted by these pointless arguments about things which aren’t real.

            I don’t accept that the entire child protection system is routinely corrupt, that children are ‘stolen’ for cash bonuses etc, etc. And I cannot ‘respect’ anyone who puts forward that view without at least attempting some sensible argument.

            Social workers do have a code of practice, and you can read about it here http://www.childprotectionresource.org.uk/category/making-a-complaint-about-a-professional/

          2. Gemsy

            Hi, I think you missed my point, I to do not assume the whole system is corrupt but I do know that parts are (parts meaning the people of corruption within the system! Which can’t be denied, it’s hard granted because these people seem credible and why wouldn’t they be believed after all they are social workers :/) BUT as I said before there are some equally wonderful people who work within the system and it’s hard to tell them apart.

            I know there is a code of practice that social workers have to adhere to, but as above, so do the papers and media who are NOT allowed to print lies without the prospect of being prosecuted. By saying that these social workers adhere to the code of practice all the time is like saying newspapers don’t print lies, which in essence we know that sometimes they too, get it wrong but with so many of the media reporting on these wrong doings, something definitely needs to be done! The ones that are in social work that are also dishonest, on a power trip, out to cause malice need to be weeded out and quick before we are failing far to many of our future generations because as said before Social workers have immense powers and terrible responsibilities. If they make a wrong decision, the consequences can be catastrophic. A failure to intervene when a child is being violently abused by its parents can lead to the death of that child, as was shown so tragically in the Baby P case. But a decision to take children away from parents who are, in fact, loving can have almost equally awful consequences.”

          3. Sarah Phillimore

            I agree with you and think it an utter tragedy that a necessary debate has seemingly been hi jacked by those who want to paint some grand picture of a conspiracy at the highest level.

          4. Gemsy

            I am amazed you deleted another comment before adding your own! I deemed it as relevant. Are you now the overseer of relevance to this is issue? Is your opinion the only one that counts? By editing as you see fit is not having a broad view of information in any way shape or form! I’m also astonished to hear you have been given NO proof of any wrong doings (Are you blind or just unwilling to see) The links I provided previously were proof of some corruption written by plenty of newspapers including the BBC, Telegraph… the list goes on(who are not allowed to lawfully print lies by the way). Now I could provide you with my own paper work and say most of it is lies but what proof do I have? Since it is written by social workers and taken as fact but I know my parents didn’t do any of the the things written by them, to me! Then it just comes down to words against words with the written statement of no truths by the social workers! I was the child subject to emotional abuse of the system, by the state! Abuse is abuse and I was taken from my loving parents because of their lies! There are many of us corrupted children too. But can we prove it NO because all we have got is experience and our word against theirs but I know, I was only ever abused by the state and was robbed of my loving home and family.

          5. Sarah Phillimore

            Sorry, don’t know what you mean. The only comments I have deleted are those which I thought were plainly mad and I deleted some ‘innocent’ comments which didn’t make sense once the mad ones were deleted. I did delete one comment of yours, and invited you to make your points again. Maybe another site administrator deleted your comment, I invite you to post it again.

            I have refused to permit only one comment so far, because I could not understand it and I don’t want too much of that kind of thing clogging up the site. But it wasn’t a comment from you.

            Of course my opinion ‘is not the only one that counts’ but as I am one of the site administrators here and do all the work in my own time and for no payment, then I will delete and add as I see fit; the only objections about the content I permit or disallow that will carry any weight with me are those of the other site administrators.

            As I have repeatedly said, you are very welcome to contribute to the site in any way you like as long as you are polite and provide as much evidence as you can for any really serious claims about corruption etc. I appreciate that evidence is not always easy to find. I also don’t think any thing from the Telegraph or the Mail carries any weight I am afraid. They have been hysterical scaremongers for too long and have lost all credibility. In my opinion.

          6. Gemsy

            To add, these statements made by these social workers were backed up by experts I had never even met!!!

          7. Gemsy

            I agree about the mail but the BBC? The Sunday times? The Thurrock gazette?

            The comment was a short comment (an after add) at the bottom of my last comment on the 4th of July (there were 2 comment one long and a shorter one, the latter removed previous to your comment. I waited to reply because I was angry at the fact it was the second of my input deleted, neither of which was abusive or irrelevant. But I am proof that some social workers lie and the experts that backed them up are swayed solely by what is written, by them. Granted this was in the late 90′s but I am aware of many others who have been subjected to the same. My success’s as an adult lay largely on my intelligence and the foundations my parents built and no credit is given to the state. I am angry because this abuse is not heard or disregarded because it doesn’t fit the given profile of being saved by social care but I feel my story holds as much weight as someone abused at home without the involvement of social work. My and other stories from masses of people unheard, shout the words plainly “WE ARE TAKING THE WRONG ONES!”. Can I say again. So we can get it right. This is no game, this is life or death. Get it right because if you did something when the facts are there, you would not need to lie when nothing is found.

            Social workers have immense powers and terrible responsibilities. If they make a wrong decision, the consequences can be catastrophic. A failure to intervene when a child is being violently abused by its parents can lead to the death of that child, as was shown so tragically in the Baby P case. But a decision to take children away from parents who are, in fact, loving can have almost equally awful consequences.

          8. Sarah Phillimore

            I agree with your last paragraph. I am not sure what more I can say. The best decisions are not always made but I believe that is because SW are over loaded with cases and too much box ticking is required. If you want to post links again, please feel free.

          9. Gemsy

            Again you miss read. I said the 4th of July, a short after comment after the long comment. Do you do this often?

          10. Sarah Phillimore

            I may well misread things if I am in a hurry. I don’t pay forensic attention to the comments section. You seem to be very angry that I have deleted your comments. I have not. If it is important, post it again.

          11. Sarah Phillimore

            Sorry. That was bad tempered of me. sometimes I need to step away from the keyboard. I am genuinely sorry that you feel your comments have not been treated fairly. I stress that I will not delete comments unless they are very rude or display characteristics of unhinged conspiracy theorising. there is no wish here to stifle genuine debate.

  6. sue donim

    What advice would you give to a parent/carer who is facing alleged CP issues and has been denied the right to reconvene CP Conference whos, Formal complaint re process and false allegations have not been allowed to progress through the statutory complaints process and who is facing the PLO process not being able to challenge any of the documents from the section 47 through to the core croup minutes

    1. phillimoresarah

      My advice would be to get a good lawyer, one you can trust and work with and challenge what is happening with their help.

  7. Katy Carr

    No-one denies that at one point LAs were incentivised financially to increase adoptions – but it was adoptions of children already in care, not forced adoptions. An adoption without the parents’ consent tends to be extremely expensive when you take into account legal fees, fostering costs, experts’ fees, social worker time and the like, but I have never seen any of the conspiracy theorists do the sums as to whether the financial incentive actually outweighs these costs.

    1. phillimoresarah

      I agree – it would be interesting to see Ian Josephs for example, do the sums. But I won’t be holding my breath…

    2. Winston Smith

      When what is now known a s Forced Adoption was started in1973 as policy it was sold to LA’s as saving them huge amounts of money from their budgets.

      Child in Care £5,000 pa
      Adoption fee to agency £8,000

      You recoup your money in less than 2 years.

      It was at1973 prices but it was a lot of money in those days.

      1. Katy Carr

        That calculation is totally irrelevant. It leaves out of consideration the costs of fostering and opposed adoption proceedings, including the cost of lawyers and experts. Also it includes no reference to the alleged financial bonus which certain people puts forward as the motivation for forced adoptions. Given that foster care can cost in the region of £400 a week (in fact up to £900 for specialist placements) and the costs of opposed adoption proceedings can run into tens of thousands of pounds – indeed hundreds of thousands if they go to appeal – the bonus would have to be absolutely staggering to make this exercise worthwhile.

  8. Matt Harding


    I wouldn’t be so quick to judge that people believing in forced adoption do not care about the children. I would imagine many of them are possibly parents who believe to have been wronged by SS. I know that if my wife and I lost our son it would devastate us. Saying that these people do not care about the children (quite possibly their own) is somewhat callous.

  9. Andrew Tilley

    I am intrigued by this comment by Philip Measures – “within the area of Safeguarding / Child Protection we are not dealing with an exact science.”????????

    If a court has the power to remove a child or children then the the process mist be even more rigorous than trial by jury. It must be so close to absolute certainty so as to be beyond reproach. There is no space for opinion – it must be 100% factual!! Correct 100% all the time.

    It cannot make mistakes!!

    I am an observer but mky views are as valid as anyone else’s – it might be my children (unlikely now due to their age) or grandchildren that are affected.

    1. phillimoresarah

      Andrew, I am intrigued as to how you think something that relies upon the judgment of fallible human beings can ever be ‘correct 100% all the time’.
      If you are aware of such a system currently operating, I would really like to know what it is as I think we could all learn from it.

      1. Andrew Tilley

        We must stop meeting like this!!

        My point is that it must err irrevocably and always on the side of keeping families together unless there is clear, substantiated proof that a child is severely at risk. If you don’t then you have a problem to rectify it afterwards when new information may become available.

        If a case of abuse won’t stand up to criminal charges then it shouldn’t stand up in any court quite frankly. And if a court is so sure of abuse, then charge the perpretators.

        1. phillimoresarah

          I think the debate about the burden and standard of proof is an interesting one. I think we have struck the right balance between keeping children safe but not removing without a rigourous examination of the issues. But if anyone would like to contribute a longer post about this issue, I do think it is worth debating.

          1. Andrew Tilley

            For me, a lesser standard of proof is saying we’ll take 100 children for adoption and accept that 5-10% may be ‘iffy’ or perhaps ‘wrong’. That to me is incorrect.

        2. MerlinC

          Following your reasoning Andrew I wouldn’t be a rape survivor, given that I am in the 90% of rape victims who never see any justice.

          Therefore, your judgement about matters of abuse is clearly FLAWED.

          Evidence about rape and abuse cases is so difficult to find that you would probably ruin so many children that you can’t believe.

          Again, I am convinced every day more that forced adoption theorists are essentially a group of bad, disgruntled parents who cannot admit they are bad parents.

          Conspiracy of my boots, my mum would say….

          1. Andrew Tilley

            That’s where you’re wrong. I’m none of those, nor am I a conspiracy theorist.

            You think it’s OK then to have the (for argument’s sake) 5% collateral damage of wrongful adoptions/miscarriages of justice to prevent a Baby P (or any other child).

            Or a Ched Evans to move on to rape trials? Who will hopefully soon be cleared.

          2. phillimoresarah

            It is certainly not ‘ok’. But my worry is, if you adopt a lower standard of proof then you will end up with more than 5% of children left in abusive and dangerous situations. As ever, it is all about balancing risk and harm. Sometimes we don’t get the balance right.

          3. MerlinC

            You might assert that you’re none of those, but the comment you just made “it is ok to have the 5% of miscarriages of justice” is the one made by the false allegations bandwagon every time they try to reform the justice system concerning DV and rape cases…. And FYI all rape and abuse apologists insist that to keep the 5% of innocent people out of jail, well.. 90% of rapists are too.

            I know the abuse issue is off topic but the conclusion could be the same: we want a better a system for everybody, with less mistakes as possible. A system that guarantee 100% of right decisions doesn’t exist.

            If to avoid the percentage of mistakes you bring down the whole system already in place, you could probably avoid the 5% of miscarriages and also… The rest though.
            When I was a child, social services didn’t exist at all where I was born. Parents were free to inflict any kind of abuse and horror on their children, children were their property.
            If you want to go back to such a situation..well, be careful what you wish for.

          4. Andrew Tilley

            So you are indeed saying that you accept collateral damage. What’s the effect of allowing adoptions incorrectly. It’s like this:


            It’s also not really a lower balance of proof when there is no proof is it? And when new evidence is brought that is the time to begin talking about adoption reversals. When they find out in later life they were taken away wrongly from their real parents – the adoptive parents will be the ones that will be hurt big time. Ive put you an article on twitter that shows that.

            A Baby P or L or Q is not a reason to tighten regulations around levels of proof. At the end of the day you wouldn’t want that to happen to anyone on a murder charge. Proof is proof – the thresholds should not be different just because we’re talking about children.

            And not considering parents, aunts, uncles as guardians just because they don’t accept the guilt of their relations is not a reason to place outside the family.

          5. Andrew Tilley

            Well actually Sarah will (I think) assert that I am none of those. I am not a rape apologist (other than believing Ched Evans is innocent) and I have no children in care. I have so many kids that Im never sure when the front door is opening next!!!

            I am merely someone very concerned at what is going on. You still havent said anything other than to make me believe you feel whatever small percentage of collateral is OK as long as most child abusers are caught. Funny how so few charges ensue from these cases!!!

            Not sure what your Mum’s boots have to do with this :)

          6. Andrew Tilley

            I feel a bit like a cracked record. I accept that you have to have a system and I accept that everyone wants (vainly) for it to be perfect.

            The one element you must have though is a safety net ie what you do when it goes t*ts up. After all, if someone is imprisoned wrongfully for rape (your chosen analogy) and found to be innocent – they will be released immediately and receive compensation. Forced adoption has to invent a recourse to react to these cases other than just sighing and pouring a cup of tea.

          7. phillimoresarah

            I would like things to be perfect but its a completely irrational thing to ‘want’ because I don’t believe it is ever achievable. All we can do is aim for the least worst option. Maybe it is time for balance to shift. The problem is the debate has become so polarised and some of those ‘against’ the current system, I am afraid, do their cause enormous harm by often coming across as utterly irrational and very unpleasant.

          8. Andrew Tilley

            Of course it’s become polarised. You’re talking about human beings’ flesh and blood. It’s become nasty out of desperation. That will continue I suspect until something gives that makes everyone sit up and pause.

            And I’m nothing if not cuddly!!

  10. Philip Measures

    Comments on Leicester ‘Baby Z’ Serious case review of 2-2-2104.

    This is interesting in that the following appears:

    ‘…As it appears that the GP was considering non-accidental injury (see above) this is a flawed response; whilst the colouring and aging of bruises require expert medical opinion and all safeguarding medical examinations are carried out by experienced paediatricians, the GP should not make a direct referral to paediatricians. A referral should be made to Children’s Social Care and thus Community Paediatricians would become involved as part of the safeguarding process….’

    The clear guidance is that where there are Safeguarding concerns GP’s should refer to Children’s Social Care and not to Paediatricians – the logic being that Children’s Social Care will then refer to the relevant Community Paediatrician (nothing is said about referrals to Police).

    I attach the relevant Link and just wonder if others would like to see if I am correct in raising this as an issue – I would have thought that GP – Paediatrician Referral was something to be encouraged. Also whether passing potentially serious concerns which may well require an immediate specialist paediatric assessment to Children’s Social Care to action that is an unnecessary step rather than GP to Paediatrician and then Paediatrician to Police / Children’s Social Care.

    Our Systems must be easy to follow and not have built in delays / unnecessary actions.


    Click on BLUE ‘LINK’ in 3rd. Column.

    1. caz

      The ‘Taken’ story is practically identical to our Family story except for the difference in the injury accussations, subdural haemottoma, billateral skull fractures, billateral brain haemorrhages, were the injuries we as a family were accussed of and also included Great Ormond St Hospital and Leeds hospital as well as our local hospital., leading to a case/court orders in a name different to my grandsons birth registered name, hospital registered name? Mistake NO the name was changed to put forward completely contemptuous injuries against us, Luckily or unluckily we went to the court of appeal which was an easy excercise to Appeal that the name was not that of my Grandchild, but in a name of a child that had never existed, The Judges judged the split case was joined and the false name stayed and could never be changed and no further appeal all on a seperate Court of Appeal certificate which was sent to all parties involved including the Middlesbrough Court alerting them to the fact there was no case or injuries to be answered to. This certificate disappeared, we were told we had lost our appeal and LA went on (illegally) to change my grandsons name and had him adopted.

      1. Sarah Phillimore

        What were your lawyers doing? If the LA tries to act contrary to a court order, you need to get it back before the court urgently. Did you get advice on an appeal?

        1. caz

          We were informed (wrongly) by the Social Services that we had lost this appeal, leading us to believe they had re appealed and won, the Social Services cut us off stating the only way to get baby back was for one Grandparents/or parents had to admit to vigourous/violent shake or throwing baby to the floor. It is only recently I have approached the court of appeal and found out there was never an appeal and an appeal was never allowed, the joined case in the false name stands to this day, talk to a solicitor advice given

          1. Sarah Phillimore

            This sounds horrifying – if any representative from a local authority lied to you about whether or not your appeal had succeeded then there should be any number of legal avenues you can use to bring them to account. Free standing human rights application? Misfeasance in public office? If what you say is true then it needs urgent investigation. Did you not have any legal representation at the appeal hearing itself?

          2. caz

            @ Sarah Phillimore
            In the year 2000 After my Grandsons adoption we let the social services know that we had been informed my Grandsons new adoption name, where he lived, school etc 3rd May 2000 we appeared before Judge Cazalat, Redcar & Cleveland SS tried to put a court injunction on us, ie not to approach, child, school, new address
            In this court Judge Cazalat stated He remembered us the family including childs mother and he wanted the court to know we were the most honest family ever to come before him, he refused court injunction but asked us to swear we a promisary to do what the LA Social Service and solicitor Mrs McKenzie representing adoptive family asked

            Now my grandson is nearing the age of 18yrs, we have set down in Middlesbrough Court Suing the Local Authority for all the injustice in this case and that they took our Grandson, Illegally changed a Full Care Order into his birth certified name contrary to the High Court of Appeal Judgement split the joined case illegally and went on to have him adopted.
            To be honest we have appeared before a Judge Mainwarring Taylor and a Judge Gillian Matthews and they do not seem to know what to do, obviously no family have ever appeared before them with evidence of such accussations as ours, we just kept being told criminal on all our evidenced accussations to Judge Gillian Matthes May 13 2014 and we are now awaiting her judgement and where to next

  11. Sarah Phillimore

    Thanks for raising this Philip, that does indeed seem an odd way to proceed. Shouldn’t the GP be referring to both? Interested to hear other’s views.

  12. Andrew Tilley

    But people found innocent get to walk free and do at least get tried in a proper court with a proper level of proof (hopefully). Family courts and adoption currently have no comeback or correction method for miscarriages of justice.

    1. phillimoresarah

      But that isn’t true is it? There are clear mechanisms of appeal. If what you mean is that adoption orders once made are rarely reversed, I agree. But the reasons for that are due to the harm that would be done to a child to be moved from an adoptive placement back to birth parents who by now, sadly, may be strangers to him or her.

      1. Andrew Tilley

        Yes I know that. That still sounds mortally flawed to me though. Im sure something could be done. I do believe some adoptions have been overturned in secret but maybe not with babies – probably older children.

        1. phillimoresarah

          I know a lot of older children do seek out their birth parents and this can cause problems if not handled sensitively by all. But I am not sure what you mean by adoptions ‘overturned in secret’ – do you mean via a court process or by a child wanting to live with his/her birth parents?

  13. Childcare Proceedings Exposed

    Investigate Core Assets the private adoption and fostering agency who’s sister company Carter Brown supply expert witnesses. If there was no money to be made, this would end overnight. Sadly, if you have family courts, judges, solicitors, barristers who practice family law they all want a payday. So children are need otherwise there wouldn’t be a role for them all.

    1. phillimoresarah

      So are you saying that children are only taken into care to keep private adoption and fostering agencies going? That no child is ever at risk of injury or death at the hands of his parents or carers? Do you think Daniel Pelka should have been taken into care?

      1. Andrew Tilley

        I dont think it’s at all relevant to quote pelkas, baby Ps etc. These children will continue to be abused and will die. The issue is not with those cases but with those that are borderline and based on opinion.

        1. Whitershadeofpale

          We are never going to have a system that is 100% perfect all of the time.
          Ultimately we are in a position where CPS always going to have to make difficult and borderline decisions. If those decisions are wrong you could be left in a situation where a child has been removed from the family home for poor reasons it you could have a situation with a dead child or one living in terror for their whole childhood.
          At the moment the courts have decided that removing a child is the lesser of 2 evils and I agree.
          This doesn’t mean that I think making wrong decisions is ok and should just be accepted. I think we should always be looking for new ways it do the best for families. That said I really do think that the advise on here is invaluable and can be used to get a good results. Learning how to work with the system we currently have is the best chance a family has of staying together.

        2. MerlinC

          What a show of empathy Andrew. If you don’t mind I will copy and paste your comment “these children will continue to be abused and will die” on an abuse/rape forum I am a member of as evidence of what society thinks……

          1. Matt Harding

            As opposed to your belief that all assumptions of guilt are true? I understand that no conviction does not equate to lack of guilt. At the same time you have to understand that not everyone accused of something is automatically guilty. I am sorry for what has happened in your past, but at some point you have to grow as person instead of becoming embittered and painting with such broad brush strokes.

          2. MerlinC

            No Matt, you are misunderstanding what I wrote. And as many non-survivors you think that victims are ‘bitter’ instead of ‘knowledgeable’ about certain issues.

            I might say, what you posted is usually the ‘defensive argument’ used by people who think abuse is rare as opposed as common. You’ve no idea how many of friends have confessed to be abused as children, later in adulthood.
            I don’t paint anything with such broad strokes, I KNOW as opposed to your “I think” or “I believe”.

            Well given that my abuse is both in childhood and adulthood, to grow as a person sounds like an insult Matt. I’ve grown to be ‘this’ person, how wrong or right that can appear to others. Maybe it can also be food for thought, Matt.

          3. Matt Harding

            Have you thought about using constructive arguments instead of aggressively attacking others? You say you don’t use broad strokes yet you and several others are the most polarized in the comments. Try given reasoned arguments whether for or against such issues. Have reports and other material to back up what is said. This advice goes for Winston as well.

            Instead of attacking other lets try and help each other, sound good?

  14. Sarah Phillimore

    Andrew, I am sorry to read what appears to be such a dismissive comment about the ‘pelkas and baby Ps’. I hope that wasn’t your intent.

    I hope we can continue to try to improve systems to safeguard such children so they don’t have to suffer and die. The ‘borderline’ cases can only benefit from such improvement.

    I don’t agree we should just accept these children will die. Victoria Climbie, Peter Connolley and Daniel Pelka were all abused over a long period of time and could and should have been rescued.

    1. Andrew Tilley

      It wasn’t dismissive. My point is that those cases would still occur even if there were no wrongful adoptions. Ergo you shouldn’t justify adoptions based on the actions of child murderers.

      1. Sarah Phillimore

        I disagree. These children are killed because of failings in the system designed to protect them – social workers did not challenge or investigate sufficiently, different agencies didn’t share information with each other, the risks the parents posed were not analysed sufficiently or at all.

        Improving the child protection system as a whole will hopefully prevent these kind of child killings, and will be of benefit to the more ‘borderline’ cases.

  15. Sarah Phillimore

    True. I don’t think we should accept that children can left to be abused over many months and there is no effective intervention.

    But in my view, those who spread fear and distrust by repeating unfounded conspiracy theories are a big part of the problem, encouraging families like Fiona Anderson’s not to engage or co-operate.

  16. phillimoresarah

    I am shortly going to remove comments from this page that illustrate 3 or more of the characteristics outlined here http://www.urban75.org/info/conspiraloons.html unless anyone has any compelling arguments as to why they should remain.

    I think there is a real danger such unhelpful contributions will detract from the serious purpose of this site.

    We will continue to gather together comments and respond in our response to commentators section
    to rebut any accusations that we censor and are not prepared to engage in debate.

    EDIT – I have had to remove some ‘innocent’ comments that no longer make sense when the offending comments have been deleted.

    1. Andrew Tilley

      I dont think urban75 is a safe reference point for any website given that is largely a haven for marxist loons

  17. Fassit

    I recollect this site lambasting our group for the following comment: Fassit are finding that social workers are removing hundreds of children from innocent parents each year through sheer incompetence and organisational failure what could best be described as blatant discrepancies between the evidence presented at Court by expert witnesses (social services; health; education etc.) and the actual events or material facts of the case..”
    Well now you can lambast the High Court Judges as well who said today that Judges and social workers have been conspiring to remove children unjustly from their parents.
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2562249/It-never-happen-Appeal-judge-slams-cut-paste-decision-family-court-led-social-workers-taking-baby-parents-unjustly.html#ixzz2tihUKGaC

      1. Matt Harding

        I find this sentence to be of great concern.

        65. Whilst I might be able to understand why such methods may have been developed, I am profoundly alarmed by their existence. Informal inquiries reveal, anecdotally, that the practices I have described are not confined to this area but are widespread across the country.

        I think the new transparency guidelines are certainly needed if this might be common practice.

        1. phillimoresarah

          I will try and get a longer response up by the weekend – it is true that Magistrates often ask for assistance in drafting their ‘facts and reasons’. This is because they have to provide written justification for all their decisions and often the drafting of this document can take many hours, leaving parents waiting around court until very late in the evening. In an attempt to short cut this process I have often been asked to draft something that can be agreed to save time. I can see why this is criticised as poor practice on occasion but it is NOT the evidence of Judge/lawyer collusion that the Mail seems to think.

          For e.g. if I act for parents and the LA want to submit a document with which I don’t agree, then I object and get it amended.

          I can also understand that by baby number 8 everyone might be getting a bit weary. Of course, that doesn’t excuse poor practice, but it doesn’t automatically equate to corruption.

          But hopefully this will be able to form part of what we hope to do with this site – provide some balance and necessary discussion about what we need to change and why.

  18. Jemsy

    I see my comment has been deleted! It was of personal experience. I am now wondering if this comment with be published. How very one sided it will be if neither comments come back, to get a better rounded view. I know from personal experience that social workers will lie, if they have got it wrong, in fear of being reprimanded or worse. Yes their is a code of conduct to follow but I can assure you not everybody is playing ball.

    1. phillimoresarah

      Sorry, yours may have been one of the ‘innocent’ comments that got deleted in a purge of the ‘mad’ ones (which were putting people off – some have been moved to Response to Commentators) If you would like to share your personal experience with us, that would be great. I am hoping to get a post up on codes of conduct and making a complaint etc so if you want to give your perspective that would be helpful. All we are interested in are the facts; we want to get as close to the truth as is possible and discuss how we support what is well done in the system but tackle what is badly done.

  19. EducatedJustice

    I have personal experience of social workers lying, falsely accusing, and altering past records to suit their agenda. I saw a family lawyer to get advice, when we had politely declined further “assistance” from them (which was only ever because of our disabled daughter) and the lawyer told me that they are known to alter records pretty all the time. She was a very reputable solicitor. My children wrote letters for me to bring to meetings at which social services were present, about how unhappy they were at school, the social workers barely looked at them and conveniently omitted to comment on their existence in their report. I have a reputable witness who heard a social worker say to me that they would “not say anything against schools”. This same witness saw how they stated one thing then reneged afterwards. My eldest child almost had a nervous breakdown from her school not supporting her with bullying problems. Instead, social services did all they could to make it look like I was making things up and two social workers who never even met me or knew my family, started citing potential for emotional harm from me to my daughter, when I was the only person emotionally supporting her and seeking help for her. These accusations were despite clinical reports on file from professionals who had spoken to my daughter alone when she said her distress was because of school. Social workers also argued against clinical reports of diagnoses and told me that I had written notes my daughter had written. They just told so many lies. In front of me a student social worker tried to push my daughter to go off alone with her and even when my daughter point blank told her she didn’t need to, she wouldn’t drop it. I attended a meeting with both children at social services’ request with two social workers, they horrifically recorded utter lies about the meeting, falsely stating I had prevented the children talking, when I had witnesses (it was held in a public place) that this was utter lies. When I got copy files I was horrified at the perpetual lies they had told. Every report they wrote was full of factual errors, and when I emailed them corrections they ignored them. In case you want to say I am posting without evidence, obviously no-one is going to post their confidential documentation online to prove what they say, but I have not exaggerated or misrepresented any of what happened. I am very factual and this is the truth. As a parent who had done not a thing wrong, I have found first-hand what it is like to get sucked into a system with an automatic blame culture, where they will try to build a case against you (and I could see they were getting towards MSBP/FII by the nature of correspondence I saw). I had to raise a complaint with the council and all they did was send it to social services themselves. There is no independent complaints process. I could say so much more, they were responsible for causing both my children much distress and I regret ever allowing them into our lives. I even attended a safeguarding training workshop during which a role-play was acted out and the CAFCASS person there automatically assumed against the family in a situation deliberately left ambiguous, no other professional present stood up to say any different. They do not understand particular disabilities and certainly never acted in the best interests of our children. Thankfully they are now out of our lives but I will warn anyone I can, that no matter how innocent you are and how good a parent you are, you are taking a big risk in any involvement with social services.

      1. EducatedJustice

        Thank you Sarah. So am I, and the sad thing is, that experiences like this make you lose entire trust in professionals. When they are supposed to be the ones you can trust, look to for advice and support and have an equal partnership with, this is a sad state of affairs.

        1. Sarah Phillimore

          I am seeing this play out in the King family case. Something has gone very badly wrong there. It does seem that there is increasing mistrust between professionals and parents. I wish I had an answer about what the best thing would be to tackle this. More transparency? More accountability?

    1. C

      I second this. Our experience with social services has been of repeated duplicity, coupled with an inability not to tarnish every innocent remark with their extremely calloused, bureaucratised, ‘trained’ and occluded vision. Their complaints process is entirely corrupt, designed only to protect them and exhaust the complainant. What is as depressing is that it is generally considered pointless to raise a protest against this behaviour unless something very severe has happened to you – as the general opinion is that the law will protect them in any way it can…. ‘for the sake of the children’…
      In our case social services presented plenty of false evidence to the Stage 3 hearing, and since they had picked the underqualified and inexperienced panel, it was never challenged. The LGO knowingly received false evidence from social services, but did not comment on it. ( Social services sent them a false chronology of events, that was proved false by audio recordings.)

      There must be a mechanism for making these people, if not honest, then at least accountable, if there is to be any hope of regaining trust in the social contract.


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